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On Fridays, the National Public Radio (NPR) show "Talk of the… - AdrianG — LiveJournal [APOD]
November 21st, 2004
10:55 am

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From:lonepair
Date:November 23rd, 2004 07:21 am (UTC)
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Hmmm... Yes, I am aware of the other meanings of objectivity, though I thought including a more specific usage would be helpful.

I agree in the essential points you bring up here with respect to handing over control to religious Fundamentalists of any denomination. You are quite right, unspeakable evil has been the result of placing power in the hands of uneducated and unscrupulous people. What I didn't elaborate on was the human tendency to usurp power for short term personal goals, which is equally possible with power derived from scientific advances as it is power from church or state. I don't trust anyone.

"You seem to be claiming that there are not meaningful differences between religion and science, and I hope you'll pardon me for being blunt, but any such claim is simply dead wrong."

No, I'm claiming that both are extremely useful, and that life cannot be fully engaged without both. It is up to the individual to integrate the experiences of same, which takes mental and emotional discipline.

Perhaps I am being as dogmatic about individualism as these Christians are about creationism; I find that when I know the truth about a given matter; I don't care anymore what others think. Apparently you do, and that is something I will have to live with, haha. I actually kinda like it when some people don't believe me, because I know I can take advantage of their stupidity later... a character flaw, perhaps?

We certainly seem to enjoy the use of words, don't we? ;)
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From:adriang
Date:November 23rd, 2004 07:11 pm (UTC)
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    I'm claiming that both are extremely useful, and that life cannot be fully engaged without both.

Hmm... I don't think I agree with that, as stated, but it could be that our disagreement is more about words than essence. I think we might at least agree that there are things outside of science which are important, and that religion often touches on those things. Spirituality is an awfully imprecise word for those things, and I worry that is has connotations that I don't want for the purposes of this discussion, but I can think of no good alternative, for the moment, so I will use it. It seems to me that religion often touches on spirituality mainly as a means to its real end, and that real end is to gain control over people by claiming monopoly authority over spirituality. It may be that some religions don't do this, but I am concerned that by saying that religion is what people need, I might be encouraging people to satisfy this need by going to the power mongers in those religions that use that tactic.

Do you see why I'm concerned about this way of putting things? I'm not sure we actually disagree on the essential point.
    I don't care anymore what others think. Apparently you do, and that is something I will have to live with, haha.

I think we all have a tremendous capacity for mental self-indulgence and even self-deception. I don't think any of us can learn to think well without testing our ideas against the sensibilities of others. It is the habit of anticipating criticism of our ideas that makes us more careful at thinking, and it is mainly experience that teaches us what types of criticism we might expect.
    We certainly seem to enjoy the use of words, don't we? ;)

I hope so, since this is a text based medium. 8-)

Adrian
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